Do you have a natural affinity for humble leadership but worry that it is less efficient than command and control?
This week Teri Schmidt chats with Urs Koenig about how radical humility leads to more effective AND more efficient teams and organizations. Urs shares eye-opening insights from his diverse experiences, from military peacekeeping to executive coaching. They dive into actionable strategies, like building a "leadership factory" within your team and the surprising business benefits of prioritizing relationships, especially in a remote work setup.
Resources:
About Urs:
Urs is a former United Nations military peacekeeper and NATO military peacekeeping commander, a highly accomplished ultraendurance champion, a widely published professor, bestselling author, and a seasoned executive coach and keynote speaker with more than three decades of experience helping hundreds of leaders and dozens of executive teams unlock new levels of achievement across four continents. He is the founder of the Radical Humility Leadership Institute and speaks frequently on the topic of leadership to corporations and associations across the globe. He holds a PhD in geography and a Master of Science from the University of Zürich, Switzerland, and an MBA from the Australian Graduate School of Management. Urs is the loving father of two teenage boys who make commanding soldiers look easy. He lives in Seattle, Washington.
Transcript
While it's not perfect, we offer this transcription by Castmagic for those who prefer to read or who are hearing impaired.
Teri Schmidt [00:00:00]:
As a listener to this podcast, I'm guessing you already have an affinity for humble leadership. You'd probably be an advocate for and practitioner of it, even if it might at times be less efficient, simply because of the positive impact that it can have on the human beings that work for us. But what if I told you that humble leadership is actually more efficient and more effective than traditional command and control leadership? Our guest today, Urs Koenig, backs up that claim. Urs is the author of Radical Humility, Be a Badass Leader and a Good Human. I was first introduced to Urs when Amy Edmondson posted about his book being her favorite leadership book of the year. Urs has significant experience to back up his claim that humble leadership is more effective and more efficient. He is a former United Nations military peacekeeper and NATO military peacekeeping commander, A highly accomplished ultra endurance champion, a widely published professor, best selling author, and a seasoned executive coach and keynote speaker with more than 3 decades of experience, helping 100 of leaders and dozens of executive teams unlock new levels of achievement across 4 continents. In today's episode, we have a captivating conversation.
Teri Schmidt [00:01:24]:
We delve into the transformative power of humble leadership and explore why humility has become an essential trait for leaders in today's complex and fast paced world. Urs shares compelling insights into how humble leadership is not only faster, but also more effective than traditional heroic leadership. His experiences and practical advice showcase how empowering teams and fostering strong relationships can lead to quicker, more decisive actions. So let's get to it. I'm Terry Schmidt, your host and executive and leadership coach at Strong Leaders Serve, where we support leaders like you in capitalizing on your strengths to achieve individual and team success. And this is the Strong Leader Serve podcast.
Teri Schmidt [00:02:27]:
Welcome, Urs, to the Strong Leaders Serve podcast. I'm looking forward to our conversation today and love the title of your book, Radical Humility. Thanks for coming on.
Urs Koenig [00:02:38]:
Absolutely. It's a pleasure. I'm looking forward to the conversation. Thank you for the nice words on the title. I humbly have to admit I like it too.
Teri Schmidt [00:02:47]:
Yeah. I know you wrote in your book that you put bragging about your ability to be a humble leader, and the irony of that. That's great. Well, we'll definitely get into that, but I'd love to get started. Just, you know, tell us your story and about the leadership experiences in your life that made you so passionate about the concept of radical humility.
Urs Koenig [00:03:09]:
Absolutely. Terry, so I was always drawn to leadership positions. As a boy scout, you know, when I was a a young teenager, then through national service in Switzerland. Everybody has to serve, so I, you know, became an officer. I had sort of my first taste of real leadership experience. Then through my collegial, level cross country skiing career as well, where I ended up being the captain of the team. And so I was always drawn to leadership positions. And frankly, the main reason, because I love people.
Urs Koenig [00:03:40]:
I just, you know and leadership is a people's business no matter, you know, which arena you're playing in. And so I actually put forward if you wanna be a good leader, you fundamentally have to love people. I actually believe that to be true. So, so I love people. And so I was I'm always drawn to leadership. Then I got into coaching after my academic career, and then quickly transitioned from career to executive coaching and really became a student of leadership for the last 25 years. And then, you know, just actually going back again to my childhood, my dad was a huge influence in me. He was a very successful, humble leader, in fact, and so he was a big inspiration in in my life.
Urs Koenig [00:04:24]:
But in terms of your question, how did I end up, you know, being so passionate about humility? I was always drawn to humble people, you know, through my whole life. People who, despite their success, never stop learning and growing and shine the light on others, but they never really studied humility in great depth as it pertains to leadership. But then, as an executive coach, as we came out of the financial crisis, social media started to explode. Everything started to just move faster and faster. I experienced a lot of my clients constantly being a step behind. And so I and a lot a lot of them were still leading pretty much top down command control, very traditional, what I call heroic leadership. And that for the first time sort of got me digging into how humility might be an answer to, that corundum that my clients were in. And then two things happened.
Urs Koenig [00:05:19]:
I deployed on my first peacekeeping mission in my early fifties. The first one was in Kosovo, with NATO to the Balkans. And, you know, on a personal level, that was a humbling experience. I didn't even know how to dress myself anymore because I was out of the service at that point or has have been out for 22 years. But ironically, transitioning back into a, what we think, very traditional top down command control environment, the military, actually showed me that the best commanders are deeply humble. They have self awareness. They have a growth mindset. They build meaningful collaborative relationships with their team members.
Urs Koenig [00:05:56]:
And so I had numerous encounters during that mission in the second run 2 years ago to the Middle East, Where I saw that the best commanders actually really deployed, deployed literally, relative to humility. And then of cUrse, COVID happened, of cUrse. And, you know, when the world shut down, we humbly all had to admit, up to the highest office in this country, that we don't know what the future brings. Yeah. Right? And anybody who claimed otherwise was full of, you know what? Mhmm. Humility was brought to the forefront with COVID. And then I came back from my second mission, 2 years ago, and then I really dug into the importance of humility in leadership in a systematic way. And, you know, the outcome of that quest is, of cUrse, the book Radical Immunity, which just came out.
Teri Schmidt [00:06:43]:
Yes. Yes. But what what diverse experiences you have that really give credibility to the concept as well as all of the research that you've done that I know went into the book. And for anyone listening out here, it is an excellent book. Highly recommend that you pick it up, not just for the research, which I know everyone who's listened to this podcast knows that I love, but, also, you have practical tips and exercises that people can do to apply the concepts and advice that you're providing right away. I love that.
Urs Koenig [00:07:20]:
Well, thank you for saying that, Terry, actually. Because one of the goals I had was I wanted to I wanted it to be research based. Right? So it needs to make sense, not just top data. But I wanted to I wanted to do it personal as well. So bring my own personal story in, but highly applicable. So I made a real effort not just to have 5 effective refi reflective questions at the end, but sort of sprinkle what I call now leadership now prompt throughout. So I'm glad it landed well with you, like
Teri Schmidt [00:07:46]:
Definitely. Definitely. Well, let's dig in a little bit then because I think with a title like radical humility, people are probably either going to jump on top of that and love it and say, yes. That's exactly what I believe in, or they're gonna be on the other side and be like, nope. Not having it. That doesn't work for our day and time. You know? It's it's just woo woo. It's soft.
Teri Schmidt [00:08:09]:
It's not practical. But what I loved is that you brought up 3 myths that I assume people are coming at you with, and probably the people in that latter group are coming at you with in terms of humble leadership. So I thought maybe by talking about those myths, we can also get a better picture of what humble leadership is in your mind. So would you mind going through those 3 myths for me? Of cUrse, you're spot
Urs Koenig [00:08:31]:
on, Terry.
Teri Schmidt [00:08:31]:
I mean, I get challenged,
Urs Koenig [00:08:39]:
on this concept that humility is weak, meek, you know, I don't have strong self confidence, all that stuff. So, so the first myth, the most common one is you can't be confident and humble. Like, how can you sort of marry the 2? And I actually would turn this around. I would argue that I have to be fundamentally confident in my own ability to have what we would call a strong sense of self to actually humbly invite feedback, for example, for my team. Only if I'm fundamentally confident can I ask my team members what do I do well as a manager and what can I do? And then actually hear the feedback and act on it. So we all had bosses who cover up their insecurities with arrogance. Right? That will be the opposite. Mhmm.
Urs Koenig [00:09:27]:
So I would argue that in order to be humble, I need to be fundamentally confident. So it's not a contradiction. Yeah. So if we think about, you know, I talk about some client examples in my book. Clients who stand up or, you know, leaders, executive coaching clients who stand up in front of their team and admit that they don't have all the answers, that they're constantly working and getting better, that they have also blind spot and weakness. But that requires courage and God, like the soft stuff is not soft. Yeah. The soft stuff is tough.
Urs Koenig [00:09:59]:
It's tough. And so so that's the first one. So the they go hand in hand. The second one I often hear is, how can I be ambitious and humble? And, again, I would turn this around. What does ambition look like? It looks like asking hard questions. It looks like asking questions like, Terry, what business are we in? Why are we failing? Or why are we not as successful as we could be, and what's my part in it? These are humble questions, but we need to ask them if we wanna actually achieve. And so in order to achieve, we need to have the humility to ask these questions. So again, instead of being a contradiction, it goes hand in hand, ambition and humility.
Urs Koenig [00:10:42]:
And the last one, and that's been actually debunked by Jim Collins in his best selling book, you know, whatever it is now, 20 5 years ago, Good to Great, the best leaders are personal, deeply humble, and are highly decisive. No way. They are not afraid to make the tough calls. And I really emphasize that, you know, wherever I speak on podcasts, in my keynote speaking in my book, we're not humble because we want to be naive or like. We're humble because it's yes, it's the right thing to do by our people, but the the world requires it today. The world and our workforce for that matter requires it. So, and sometimes the best humble leaders, the most loving thing you can do is actually let somebody go. So that's why I say you need to be a badass leader and a good tune.
Urs Koenig [00:11:31]:
Yeah. So they're not mutually exclusive.
Teri Schmidt [00:11:33]:
Right. Right. Yeah. I I think some people might see that being ex mutually exclusive, but just the way you said it, it is so true that they are not. Could you dig into that decisive piece a little bit more? How does being a humble leader help you to be more decisive as a leader?
Urs Koenig [00:11:51]:
So well, actually, let's maybe quickly look at what I mean by Mhmm. Leading with radical humility. So it says 3 legged stool.
Teri Schmidt [00:11:58]:
Mhmm.
Urs Koenig [00:11:59]:
So what so leading with radical the first leg is deep self awareness. So that's what people often think of when they think of humility. I see myself accurately. And by the way, it doesn't mean that I put myself down either. Yeah. Because that's not accurate, then it's not humble. So I see myself in line with our other seers. I have also the humility to know that I can't do everything, but I can do almost anything I put my mind to.
Urs Koenig [00:12:26]:
So this notion of stop doing stuff, you know, focus Mhmm. On what really on what really matters. So that's the first leg of this stool is the deep self awareness. The second leg is leading relationally on a 1 on 1 basis with my team members. So, you know, we might talk a bit more about that. Yeah. But today, we're really facing an inversion of expertise, meaning our people will always know so much more than we ever can Mhmm. About their area of expertise.
Urs Koenig [00:12:53]:
For them to to come to us with the data and information we so clearly rely on, they need to trust us. And the only way they'll trust us is if we've built meaningful collaborative relationships So that's the second leg of the school. And the third one is leading relationally on an organizational level. So leading on Amy Edmondson's. I think I have a book back there. On Amy Edmondson's work in psychological safety. So providing a culture where it's safe for anybody and everybody to speak up without fear of being shamed or worse, risking their careers. And so if we think about that to come back to your question, what does decisive look like? It looks like I understand.
Urs Koenig [00:13:35]:
I understand myself. I understand my strength and weaknesses. I understand my people, Ali Drey, and I understand the culture in my team. And so then if I understand and build those 3 legs of the stool, then I have an accurate picture of what needs to get done, and then I ruthlessly execute. Right. Right. Humility does not exclude ruthless execution. Mhmm.
Teri Schmidt [00:13:58]:
Yeah. I love that you call that out because I think that is a misconception that a lot of people have. And, you know, just getting back to your piece about being a humble leader doesn't mean that you are not confident. You know, I I really resonate with that. Our definition of leadership as strong leaders serve is courageously using your talents to make a way for others to courageously use theirs. And we have kind of a 3 step leadership development model, but the first step is that ground knowing yUrself. And I think, you know, I've seen so many clients that have just by knowing what their strengths and their values are and developing that confidence, then they are able to be more decisive, and they are able to ask for that feedback like you you mentioned. And particularly, like you mentioned, they're actually able to hear and act on that feedback.
Teri Schmidt [00:14:55]:
So it's not just going through the motions of asking the feedback, but it's actually internalizing that and figuring out, okay, where do I need to change? How am I gonna change? How am I gonna share that I've changed?
Urs Koenig [00:15:07]:
Well, I think that's an excellent point, Terry. So, you know, the worst thing we can do is ask for feedback and then, you know, not respond to it or simply ignore it. But I also wanna be clear, like, leadership is not the popularity content. Uh-huh. You know? I always ask, I always listen Yeah. I always think, but I decide what I'm acting on. And so but I think the important piece always is when we ask for feedback, which I know is close to your heart as well Mhmm. Is that we circle back to folks and say, look, I've heard you around x y z.
Urs Koenig [00:15:40]:
I have, you know, 10 things I could do. I'm focusing on 2 and the rest for a reason x, y, z, I won't actually address this point. Yep. So closing the loop, I think, is super important.
Teri Schmidt [00:15:50]:
Yeah. Definitely. And and that's a great distinction too. It's not that you're acting on every piece of feedback you get. You you are communicating why or why not. You are acting or not acting on that feedback. So, yeah, I definitely appreciate that. Well, you know, I in listening to you on some other podcasts and and reading your book as well, I did hear something that stuck out to me.
Teri Schmidt [00:16:16]:
And you said that humble leadership is actually more efficient than our standard kind of, as you might call it, heroic leadership or command and control. And I was really curious about that because I think that is one of the pieces of pushback, you know, we get when we're talking about our definition of leadership. And then I've also heard other people say that, you know, yes. It's nice to take care of your people. Yes. It's nice, to be a good human in leadership, but sometimes you just need to move efficiently, and and this just isn't the way to do that. So I'd love to hear some of the experiences that have led you to believe that humble leadership is actually more efficient.
Urs Koenig [00:17:01]:
Right. Yeah. I would put put forward it's more efficient and it's more effective. Mhmm. Right? And so, you know, the nice little distinction. Right? Efficiency, doing things right, and effectiveness doing the right things. So to answer your question, let's actually take a step back. So heroic leadership, you know, this is what we might call paternalistic leadership from the past where, you know, the leader sits on top of the org chart, has all the information, all the data, is the smartest person in the room, all the information flows through him or her, and they make all the calls.
Urs Koenig [00:17:35]:
And that's worked really quite well.
Teri Schmidt [00:17:37]:
Mhmm.
Urs Koenig [00:17:37]:
Through the industrial age when things were complicated maybe, but not complex. When things weren't coming at us from all direction. But what happens when we have the heroic leadership paradigm in today's world? The leader becomes a bottleneck. By the time the the questions raise up your chart and come down to the front lines, it's often an iteration of 2 behind. And, you know, one example I have in the book around the failing of this heroic leadership paradigm is the success of the Ukrainian Armed Forces early in the conflict, long before there were any weapons from the west going in. You know, exemplified by how a mechanized infantry company commander put it. He said, I get to decide if and when I engage the Russian enemy. Compared to the Russians where, you know, if the smallest decision has to go all the way up to the general, sometimes to the president and come back down.
Urs Koenig [00:18:34]:
And so a lot of the early success of the Ukrainian Armed Forces is actually due to this empowered execution at the front line, so not the heroic way. So coming back I know I'm going back a little bit or or or take a step back. But to come back to your question, Howard put forward that, you know, the VUCA world, like volatile, uncertain, complex and biggest world is by definition humbling. Anybody who claims that they know how AI is going to impact their business 12 months from now, I don't think so. So we need to deploy a learning and growth mindset, which is part of leading with radical humility as well. And so, if we think about again the definition, self awareness, I understand my strength, my weakness. That means I can hire accordingly. I can delegate accordingly.
Urs Koenig [00:19:30]:
That makes things more efficient.
Teri Schmidt [00:19:31]:
Mhmm.
Urs Koenig [00:19:31]:
I build strong collaborative relationships with that team member. I lead by shared purpose versus, you know, I talk about the metaphor of a compass showing true north versus providing that people with a map, like, you need to do x, x, y, z. Mhmm. Mhmm. If we lead through the strong relationships and a shared purpose, there is actual empowered execution at the front lines so people can make good smart decisions independently. So this is, you know, I talk about Devil Patriot, the former Massachusetts governor in the book who was in charge during the horrific Boston Marathon bombing. And the Boston Marathon bombing, the response to the Boston Marathon bombing has been credited as one of the most effective effective and efficient, responses to disaster ever studied. And David Patrick deployed humble leadership.
Urs Koenig [00:20:21]:
He entered the command center each and every time. Instead of telling people what to do in micromanaging, he would say, how can I help? Mhmm. But it doesn't mean it didn't mean he was passive. He was very clear about jurisdiction when they were competing priorities. He made the call. He made the call. So in that way, I have deep self awareness, understand my strength and weaknesses. I high recording that delegate accordingly, makes me for more efficient.
Urs Koenig [00:20:49]:
I have my people empowered at the frontline, more efficient. And then lastly, you know, the psychological safety we talked about. All the research shows that the best predictor for the effectiveness of a team is psychological safety. It's more important who's on the team and the the size of the team and the tenure. And then lastly, so the outside world, it requires it. Our workforce requires it. We have a highly diverse generation entering the workforce. And all the research shows they would not only want purpose, they want meaning, they also want strong relationship.
Urs Koenig [00:21:24]:
There's study after study showing that a strong relationship culture, which is a core part of leading with radical humility, is equally, sometimes even more importantly to them than money. Yeah. And so the external world requires it and the workforce require it.
Teri Schmidt [00:21:40]:
It seems to make complete sense to me. And I I think in terms of the empowered execution, when you are leading that way, when you are a humble leader, you are going to just by nature of how you lead, enable others around you to grow so that empowered execution even becomes more effective because they are developing in a way that they would not develop under heroic leadership.
Urs Koenig [00:22:07]:
Yeah. You know, and let's be honest, actually. In terms of the heroic leadership paradigm, we all love the story. We all love the stories about the heroes. Right? We love them. So, you know, that's why we watch movies and whatnot. And deep down, as leaders, we all like to be asked for input. We love to make a lot of decisions.
Urs Koenig [00:22:27]:
Why it makes us feel important. Right? We've all wanna be needed and add value, and that's great and wonderful. I put forward that, you know, sometimes I get big time pushback around that, but my task is to try and make myself obsolete as a leader. Like, the real test of leadership is how does the ship run when I'm not there? Yeah. You know, not never, but on a day to day basis. Can my team execute? Do they understand the shared purpose? Do they ask themselves, what would the leader decide? What would Terry what will Urs want to do? Right? Or what's more importantly, actually, what's the CEO or what's the big mission of the organization? What's the purpose here? And then they execute on their own. So working myself out of a job is actually what helps then, as you said earlier, empower people to do the job on their own without you constantly having to be in there.
Teri Schmidt [00:23:23]:
Right. Right. Which by nature, like you mentioned, makes it everything run much more efficiently. Yeah. I I love that. Curious since you've been an executive coach working with leaders through through different times, different events in the world. And you mentioned the VUCA world that, you know, we are currently in, which we've probably been in for a little bit, but I I think some elements of it are accelerating. Has humble leadership always been important for leaders, Or is it shifting in your experiences with leaders to being just even more and more important?
Urs Koenig [00:24:01]:
So, of cUrse, I'm biased. Right?
Teri Schmidt [00:24:02]:
Mhmm.
Urs Koenig [00:24:03]:
Totally own that. Yeah. My message.
Teri Schmidt [00:24:05]:
Right.
Urs Koenig [00:24:06]:
Right. I've researched it. I believe in it. And and by the way, I also want to be very clear, so I'll answer your question a second. Humility is no replacement for competence. I think I'm very early on in the book, very clear about that. So we need to do all the things I talk about, the relationship building, the self awareness. But if I don't have the technical skill to do my job, like, no amount of humility will save me.
Urs Koenig [00:24:29]:
Mhmm. Right? So that's number 1. There's also, of cUrse, as the situational leadership model teaches us, when the house is on fire in a crisis mode, that's not a time for relationship building. Right? So then Right. Somebody needs to make the call and then we go. And so, that's that's important. So I would argue that it's always been important. I actually have in my one of my keynotes, I talk about sir Ernest Shackleton.
Teri Schmidt [00:24:54]:
Mhmm.
Urs Koenig [00:24:54]:
Irish polar explorer. You're familiar with this Norwegian endurance? Mhmm. Shackleton was a deeply humble leader. This is 110 years ago. He built meaningful relationships with his crew members. Are you kidding me? In the 1910? That's unheard of in an English ship. The top down command control like par excellence. Right? So we've had humble leaders and Shackelyne's voyage is to this day the number one survival story.
Urs Koenig [00:25:22]:
His leadership is widely admired. Tons of you know, leadership consultants use as example. So it's been effective for a long time. I do think that because of what we're facing in in the VUCA world, faster moving, constant change, that the humble leadership approach is becoming more important and more needed than it has been when things were more predictable and slower moving. So I think always been beneficial, but now it's actually become a, in my book, a must have versus just a nice to have.
Teri Schmidt [00:25:53]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I agree with, and I'm trying to remember the term that you use, but the, kind of inversion of expertise or how Yeah. You know, those that we lead likely have more expertise in in different areas. It's almost a guarantee than than we do as leaders. I think given that knowledge and just the ease of accessing expertise and information, that we live in today, I think the more that you build those relationships and are able to access them in your leadership and and access that information because those relationships and that trust is strong, the better.
Urs Koenig [00:26:35]:
Right. That's
Teri Schmidt [00:26:36]:
Yes. Well, let's talk a little bit about, you know, another huge shift that's happened, you know, particularly since the pandemic in terms of many organizations, many businesses going to either a remote work environment, fully remote or hybrid. How does humble leadership benefit, or or what are some of the challenges of operating in that environment as a humble leader?
Urs Koenig [00:27:04]:
You know, let's be real. There's definitely challenges. So when you know, not by now, it should be clear that relationship building is a core element of humble leadership. So, you know, the times when the CEO ran into the intern by the water cooler, you know, that's they happen much less often. And that's a real lot. Like Mhmm. I mean, that's I think the research shows that. It also happened to be my feeling.
Urs Koenig [00:27:26]:
That's a real loss. And so, you know, and some of the things that some amazing leaders have done, like Michael Bloomberg, for example, when he ran New York City, he organized the, his his office as a bullpen, like he did when he had his trading, company. So with him in the center, open plant, everybody around him. And so, you know, there were a lot of sort of relationship building just because you're running to people or you overheard what they were talking about. So that's obviously not happening anymore. So I think we need to be even more intentional in terms of growing our self awareness, meaning asking for feedback and relationship building. And so that means that we need to hop on Zoom calls on a regular basis, and we need to have, you know, personal check ins with our team members. So I there's more challenging, but we can still do it.
Urs Koenig [00:28:18]:
Right? So I can still ask the same questions. Terry, what do I do well as a leader? What can I do better? All these things still can happen. And, you know, I'm not an expert, let's be clear, on, you know, what's happening to, to the workforce because of the remote or no high now hybrid work. But I do think that relationship building, making people feel that weak, or not just make them, but caring for them, giving a sense of belonging. That's right. Increasingly, it's even more important in a remote environment. So all the concept I talk about, I think, become even more important as people feel isolated and, I mean, maybe sometimes disengaged a little bit.
Teri Schmidt [00:28:58]:
Yeah. I I would agree. And and in my experience, it's it's possible, and I've seen leaders do it very well, but it the word that you use that sticks out to me too is intentional. It it because it is easy to just kind of not reach out to someone because you aren't seeing them face to face. You're not seeing them, like you mentioned, at the water cooler. Particularly, you know, if you tend to be, you know, a little bit more introverted or, you know, reaching out is difficult or given the business of our leaders, you know, sometimes it just gets put by the wayside. Oh, I'll I'll have that informal call later because it's not the alligator closest to the canoe to speak. So Yeah.
Teri Schmidt [00:29:43]:
Yeah. What I guess at that point, it just becomes so important to, like, you show in your book, know the benefits of doing that relationship building so that you can motivate yUrself.
Urs Koenig [00:29:57]:
Absolutely. So, you know, one thing, and this is borrowed from Edgar Schein's work. Mhmm. What I like to encourage people to do, especially when they work remote, is draw your own relationship, man. So grab a piece of paper, put yUrself in the center with a circle, and then all the people you're connected to, this is your friends, family, including peers, direct reports, bosses, you know, finance ops, all the other department, and then assess the quality of the relationship you have with each of these people on a level of 1 to 5. And then ask yUrself, what level should it be? And then, you know, to your point, make an effort to reach out to the 2 people where the discrepancy is the largest and have a 15 minute check-in call. Yeah. So, especially as we work remotely, I think this becomes even more important.
Urs Koenig [00:30:42]:
And, you know, I I can go on and on about this. The, you know, relationship building, we don't do it because we want to be nice or like. Mhmm. It drives engagement. It drives trust. It drive drives communication. There's no nonsense business benefit.
Teri Schmidt [00:30:56]:
Mhmm.
Urs Koenig [00:30:56]:
And so, you know, often I do get pushback. I don't have time for this, you know. And it and to come back to the efficiency, it's never efficient in the short term. I totally agree. But it always pays in the long run. We never know who we have to rely on when the stuff hits the fan as it always does. And so relationship building is a preemptive move. Building bonds with others is a preemptive move.
Teri Schmidt [00:31:18]:
Mhmm. Mhmm. Definitely. Yeah. And I remember a specific story or 2 in your book too, where you talked about, you know, going in to a meeting where you didn't think you would have much pull and because you had done that relationship building, it it really paid off. Would you mind giving a little bit more detail?
Urs Koenig [00:31:36]:
No. Absolutely. This was in the Middle East 2 years ago. I I just got promoted as the Swiss senior officer, and we had a situation in Syria where my Swiss officers had serious safety concerns. And they called me and said, can you help? And I just got promoted as Swiss senior, and I was a low ranking officer than everybody else on the leadership table. And I needed to bring up the concerns and ask for a change in leadership. And so I was not looking forward to the meeting because Hey, Pat. You know, I have to work double hard.
Urs Koenig [00:32:09]:
But I go in, I'm being very tough on result, like, very to the point, you know? And so, you know, and to my amendment, my message was heard and then Laurent didn't get me into trouble. And, you know, I do attribute that effectiveness and then the concerns of most importantly, the concerns of my service officers were immediately resolved. But up to that point, I was really working hard on relationship building. I did the Edgar Kleinberg. I
Teri Schmidt [00:32:36]:
Mhmm.
Urs Koenig [00:32:37]:
When I was promoted to senior 2 weeks earlier, I pulled down the org chart of the UN mission and identified about 30 people, including everybody in the leadership table who I needed to build strong relationships with. And then I literally had the 30 minute relationship building meetings where I just called them up and, you know, shared with a bit of vulnerability about my background, personal, professional, ask about theirs, their hopes and concerns for the mission and their expectations of me as a senior. And so, you know, this brings up another topic here, sharing with a bit of vulnerability improves trust. Vulnerabilities first, trust second. And that then enabled me to be heard at the highest level. And I'm convinced the only reason I was heard and my officer's concerns and CRO result is because I was able to build this relationship beforehand. Yeah. And so that's, you know, one sort of is a very good example because the benefit were immediately, you know, there.
Urs Koenig [00:33:34]:
Sometimes it takes years. Right? Mhmm. Where, until they become fair. So that was both of them. Yeah.
Teri Schmidt [00:33:41]:
Yeah. Yeah. And, I think it illustrates really well. Yes. You put in the time. You took the time to map out the relationships, to have those conversations. But then when you had a decision that you needed to promote, it was made quickly because you had laid that foundation and and done that work. And not that it happens all the time like that, but it sounds like this was a very difficult situation, that could have taken many, many more, maybe even years to get it.
Teri Schmidt [00:34:12]:
Hopefully not, but to get to the resolution that you wanted. But because you had done that work up front, it was more efficient.
Urs Koenig [00:34:19]:
Absolutely. And, you know, COVID also showed us that we don't have to go to the military. I mean, even though I have another, you know, example that in crisis in crisis leadership, flowcharts, orders are all great, but what really counts is knowing the right people. Right. Being able to pick up the phone, cut it through the red tape, and at the onset of COVID, you know, there's research showing that strongly networked organizations did much, much better. Sort of, you know, intuitive. It makes sense. Yeah.
Urs Koenig [00:34:47]:
If you have already talked to each other, you know, you get stuff done versus if you're silo. So. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So relationship building with a business purpose, absolutely. We do it because it's the right thing by our people, but because it produces results.
Teri Schmidt [00:35:01]:
Yeah. Yeah. And and getting back to the original question about remote work, you know, it's it's probably more important than ever to put extra focus on that network building, those relationship building activities.
Urs Koenig [00:35:15]:
Right. Yeah. You know, and what's the most important currency we have as a leader? It's our time. Right? It's our time and our attention. Right? So how much attention time do we do we give to our team that are most important currency in our quest?
Teri Schmidt [00:35:29]:
Yeah. Definitely. Well, thank you for that. And thank you for the very practical idea too to map out everyone on a relationship map. Love Ed Edgar Schein as well, and, I appreciate that that is something that, you know, as a listener, I can take and and just work on this afternoon for 20 minutes or so. So thank you for that. You know, I have one last question that I'd like to ask all my guests since the podcast is titled Strong Leaders Serve. I'd love to hear what that means to you.
Urs Koenig [00:35:59]:
By the way, I love I should have said this earlier. I love the title of of of the podcast. So what it means to me is that I have to, unsurprisingly, the humility to step out of the spotlight and let my team members shine. So that's sort of an abstract level. One concrete thing I'm thinking about when I hear this is what I call, I'm gonna develop a leadership factory
Teri Schmidt [00:36:23]:
within my team.
Urs Koenig [00:36:23]:
I'm gonna make it the explicit goal for my team to produce the next generations of leaders. So I'm gonna serve my people by building them up, by producing the next generation of leaders. And so, so that's what comes up. I'm super passionate about this concept of really, you know, every conversation I have with my team members, let's at least have, you know, 1 minute spent on where's your career going? What do you need to do next? And what are you thinking? And then taking pride as a leader in my people developing and then moving on. And they all will move on. You know, let's be real. Right? We know nobody hangs around forever and neither do we. Right? So then let's make this part of our conversation with our team members to help them to get to to the next level.
Urs Koenig [00:37:08]:
I know I've all sectioned this in, about this in the book. But when I think about strong leaders serve, strong leaders are strong enough and humble enough that they don't need to be the center of attention. They take pride. We take pride in our team member's success.
Teri Schmidt [00:37:23]:
Yeah. Said it so well there. And as as you know, so aligned with our definition of leadership and and our whole focus. So thank you for that. Thank you for the book and the the practical exercises that you have in there as well as sharing your own story and the experiences. We will definitely make sure that the book gets linked. We'll include your LinkedIn profile in our show notes. Where else would you like people to go if they'd like to connect with you or, learn more about the work that you do?
Urs Koenig [00:37:54]:
So LinkedIn is, yes, the platform I'm the most active on. Connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find me on the web on my website. I'm sure you put that in the show notes as well, Horstkodig.com for my keynote speaking, for workshops. I do a little bit of coaching these days, not a lot, but, on the web. And get in touch. I'd love to hear. I really sincerely love to hear from readers how their message is landing, what they like, what doesn't work for them.
Urs Koenig [00:38:18]:
So I love interacting with the with the readers online.
Teri Schmidt [00:38:21]:
Well, excellent. Well, thank you again for your time, Urs. I really appreciate it.
Urs Koenig [00:38:26]:
Absolutely. It was so much fun, Terry. Thank you.
Teri Schmidt [00:38:32]:
Wasn't that an excellent and actionable conversation? What is one action that you will try from what you've heard? For me, it will be the relationship map. I'm eager to get started and see the impact that it has. I challenge you to pick one of Orz's suggestions and try it out. It will make your leadership both more efficient and more effective. And until next time, lead with this quote by Peter Drucker that Orr is included in his book in mind. If you want to start doing something new, you have to stop doing something old.
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