Do you sometimes feel like the empathy at work pendulum has swung too far in one direction?
Like people are starting to take advantage of caring leaders?
Today's guest, Maria Ross, addresses that feeling head on in her upcoming book, The Empathy Dilemma: How Successful Leaders Balance Performance, People, and Personal Boundaries.
In our conversation, she'll unpack the five foundational pillars of empathetic leadership that she identified through extensive research and interviews. We'll discuss how empathy goes beyond being nice—how it's a powerful tool that can enhance performance, boost innovation, and improve overall employee engagement and customer experiences.
Maria will share insights on how empathy, when misused, can become weaponized in the workplace, and how leaders can establish clear communication and professional boundaries to address such challenges.
This is an episode packed with wisdom, practical advice, and as always, actionable insights to help you serve and lead effectively.
Resources:
About Maria:
Maria Ross is a speaker, facilitator, author, strategist, and empathy advocate who believes cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive. She’s spent decades helping forward-thinking leaders, teams, and brands connect and engage through empathy to accelerate growth. Maria has authored multiple books, including her newest, The Empathy Dilemma: How Successful Leaders Balance Performance, People, and Personal Boundaries, Her previous book, The Empathy Edge sparked a movement and she now hosts the top-rated The Empathy Edge podcast, speaking with leaders, changemakers, authors, and activists on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Maria delivers powerful talks and leadership training workshops for companies such as Salesforce, TBWA/Worldwide, New York Life, and CHRISTUS Health. Maria has delivered dynamic keynotes at venues ranging from TEDx to The New York Times to The 3% Conference. Maria has appeared in many prominent media outlets, including MSNBC, NPR, Wisdom from the Top with Guy Raz, Forbes, ABC News, Entrepreneur and Thrive Global. Maria lives in the San Francisco Bay Area with her husband, young son, and American Bully rescue dog and serves clients worldwide.
Transcript
While it's not perfect, we offer this transcription by Castmagic for those who prefer to read or who are hearing impaired.
Teri Schmidt [00:00:00]:
Do you sometimes feel like the empathy at work pendulum has swung too far in one direction? Like people are starting to take advantage of caring leaders? You're not alone. It's a concern I've heard from several leaders. Today's guest, Maria Ross, addresses that feeling head on in her soon to be released book, The Empathy Dilemma: How Successful Leaders Balance Performance, People, and Personal Boundaries. Maria is a speaker, speaker, facilitator, author, strategist, and empathy advocate who believes cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive. She's spent decades helping forward thinking leaders, teams, and brands connect and engage through empathy to accelerate growth. Maria's previous book, The Empathy Edge, sparked a movement and she now hosts the top rated Empathy Edge podcast. Speaking with leaders, change makers, authors, and activists on how to achieve radical success through empathy, Maria delivers powerful talks and leadership training workshops for companies and I'm thrilled to bring you my conversation with her today. So let's get into it.
Teri Schmidt [00:01:14]:
I'm Teri Schmidt, your host and executive leadership coach who loves partnering with caring leaders and teams to accelerate their impact, and this is the strong leaders serve podcast. Well, hi, Maria. Welcome to the Strong Leader Serve podcast.
Maria Ross [00:01:44]:
Thanks for having me, Teri.
Teri Schmidt [00:01:46]:
I'm really looking forward to our conversation. We had such a great I think it was about a year ago now that I was on your empathy edge podcast. And I am all about empathy in the workplace and really excited for the new book that you have coming out.
Maria Ross [00:02:01]:
Thanks. Yeah. I love talking
Teri Schmidt [00:02:03]:
to you about how to create stronger teams. And empathy is a big part of that. Hopefully our audience already knows you, but if they don't, I would love for you to just tell us a little bit about yourself, about your story, and about how you got so focused on empathy in the workplace?
Maria Ross [00:02:21]:
Yeah. Sure. So I am what I like to call an empathy advocate. I am a speaker, a leadership trainer, a, an author, a podcaster, and my my coming book is The Empathy Dilemma, How Successful Leaders Balance Performance, People, and Personal Boundaries. It's a follow on to my last book, which was called The Empathy Edge, harnessing the value of compassion as an engine for success. And I actually got into this work through marketing and branding, quite honestly. I started my own brand consultancy after a very successful, corporate marketing career. And in 2008, I started Red Slice, and I was working and I still continue to work with forward thinking companies about how to connect and engage with the people who matter, usually from a brand perspective, customers, and prospects.
Maria Ross [00:03:11]:
And the theme of empathy came up a lot in terms of helping them really understand who their empathy came up a lot in terms of helping them really understand who their customers were and not just from a demographic perspective for but from a psychographic. So who are they? What are their goals? What are their values? What are their fears? What keeps them up at night? What sort of a day in the life? So that we can understand how our products and our services fit into their needs. And this way, we're not just marketing to everybody, but we're marketing to the right people who actually need what we've got. And that that superpower of empathy is very much underappreciated in marketing. But that was when I wrote the first book, and that was really about, you know, looking at it from the perspective of leaders, teams, and brands because you can't look at brand without looking at culture. They're 2 sides of the same coin. And if if you do, you run the risk of putting a brand veneer on your company. So So it's really gotta start from the inside out, which I know you are very passionate about.
Teri Schmidt [00:04:10]:
Yeah.
Maria Ross [00:04:10]:
So did a lot of research and subsequently did years of interviews on my podcast with leaders in leadership development, leadership training, leadership optimization, and in culture. And so that's why I ended up writing the second book that's now coming out soon because this one's really about leaders who get it and they understand the ROI because the the first empathy book was about establishing the business, but they struggle because it's hard. Right? And so this next book talks about why it's hard, because everyone thinks it's a good idea if you talk to them. But why is it actually hard to implement, and why is it really hard for people to balance empathy with getting things done and holding people accountable and protecting their own mental health? And so I, across all my research and interviews, discovered 5 common threads that really effective and empathetic leaders have a really strong foundation. And this way, leaders can read this book and say, where do I need to shore up my foundational pillars? Because maybe that's the the missing piece or the weak piece for me that's causing me all these problems with trying to be an empathetic leader at work.
Teri Schmidt [00:05:24]:
Right. And I love that you dig into those 5 specific pillars because I think sometimes people think, oh, I just need to be more empathetic. I just need to be nicer. Right? And we both know that's not what empathy at work really means. But maybe just before we get into those 5 pillars and some of the challenges that you address in your excellent book, I'd like to take a step back because you also start off your book with what empathy at work is and what it is not. So I wonder if maybe you could just walk us through that. And you mentioned the business case for empathy. I know that was kind of more your first book, but, basically, I'd love to hear from you.
Teri Schmidt [00:06:04]:
What is empathy? What is it not? And why should leaders care?
Maria Ross [00:06:09]:
Yeah. So what it is is, there are a lot of different definitions, but I created a, a working definition that works for people at work. I know that's a lot of work. Mhmm. But empathy is really the ability to see, understand, and where appropriate, feel another person's perspective and further use that information to act with compassion. So I like to talk to leaders who might be like, oh, it's squishy, and it's, oh, it's me crying on the floor with my employees at work. Right? Think of it as information gathering to make you more effective and to make your team more effective. So when you can see something from another person's perspective, when you can try to understand and get curious and listen, you get information that can help you move forward effectively with that person.
Maria Ross [00:06:56]:
So it's about understanding someone's context. It's not always about crying on the floor. You may end up crying. Who knows? But, you know, that's not what it's primarily about. And so when we look at it from the perspective of information gathering, it it feels a little bit more accessible, especially in the workplace. Right? Mhmm. And what it's not is you alluded to this earlier. It's not just about being nice.
Maria Ross [00:07:21]:
We can't just hire a bunch of nice people and expect an empathetic culture. Nice is a different thing. Empathy is about being able to see someone's point of view without defensiveness or fear, I should add. It's also not about caving into unreasonable demands because that's submission and acquiescence. That's not empathy. That's people pleasing. Right? And Mhmm. It also is not agreeing with someone.
Maria Ross [00:07:45]:
So you and I can have an empathetic conversation about a debate or about a difference in budget strategy or a difference in what we think the right strategic course is to take. And we can try to see each other's perspectives, but I don't have to agree with you. I can I can look at what you're saying? I could add to it. We could come up with some combined method. We could come up with some third way, but it's only in the being able to understand where each person is coming from and why they feel the way they feel or why they think the way they think that we can come to constructive, creative, innovative solutions. And being able to be in that empathetic environment, you talked about the ROI. There's so much data and so much research that shows that empathetic leaders, and cultures boost performance, boost innovation, boost engagement, boost you know, from a customer standpoint, they create better customer experiences.
Teri Schmidt [00:08:44]:
Mhmm.
Maria Ross [00:08:44]:
They decrease churn. They increase retention. They increase loyalty. And if you think about it, you know, this is so much of your work. It's about creating that safe space so people are not cognitively paralyzed, worried about the wrong things. You want them focused on the work at hand. You want them focused on creative solutions. And we know from science that when we're under stress or we're in fear or we're, you know, worried about getting fired or we're worried about, you know, getting fired for submitting an idea, our cognitive abilities are impaired.
Maria Ross [00:09:20]:
So literally, you are reducing the effectiveness of your employee's ability to innovate for the company when you don't employ empathy as part of the culture. And so that's really the ROI for people and why leaders should care because it actually does impact the bottom line.
Teri Schmidt [00:09:36]:
Does matter so much, and I'd love to dig into that. But before we do, just that last piece you were talking about, we did a whole another episode with Tom Garrity, and he was talking about the impact on cognitive load when you don't have psychological safety on your team. And it was an interesting perspective that I hadn't considered before, and I love hearing you bring it up as well. And you then, you know, the other thing that you said at the beginning about its information gathering, that brings up something I've been talking a little bit about lately, and that is I read a research article where the title referenced perspective mistaking. I know an element of empathy, cognitive empathy, focuses on perspective taking, but this article talked about how sometimes, even though we're trying to take the perspective of someone else, we're actually perspective mistaking. If you're not doing that information gathering and you're just assuming that you know what the other person is thinking, that's a step. It's better than not thinking about it all what they're thinking about, but it's still dangerous, and it isn't as valuable as doing that information gathering.
Maria Ross [00:10:50]:
Yeah. I love that you said that because that's the danger of going with purely cognitive empathy because there's cognitive empathy and there's emotional empathy. Cognitive empathy is me imagining what things might be like for you or how I might react in the situation.
Teri Schmidt [00:11:03]:
Mhmm.
Maria Ross [00:11:04]:
But in that scenario, it's a start. Like you said, it's better than nothing, but it also centers me in the narrative. Mhmm. And how I might react in that scenario is not how you might react in that scenario. So if we take it to the workplace, right, I might be motivated by a huge bonus to work Mhmm. You know, 80 hours on a special project. If I assume everybody is motivated by just money, I'm gonna have a problem. But if I can be empathetic and go, okay.
Maria Ross [00:11:29]:
Well, you know, Maria's motivated by money, but Teri's motivated by flexibility with her time. So the reward for Teri for doing that extra project might need to be something else. And that's how we get the best work out of our people. We don't try to apply that cookie cutter perspective, but but I've gone away from using the phrase walk in someone else's shoes and instead Mhmm. Gone to see things from their perspective. Because I can get on the same side of the table and see what you try to see what you see. But, again, it's not you seeing it. It's me seeing it.
Maria Ross [00:12:02]:
I'm gonna interpret it differently. I'm going to react differently. And so it's really about understanding what the other person's experience is, and you can't get there unless, like you said, you ask questions and you get curious. Mhmm. And try not to make assumptions.
Teri Schmidt [00:12:18]:
Definitely. And that last point you brought to mind, in your book, I know you had a quote that empathy is about connection, not conversion. I love that, especially, you know, when we talk about the culture that we're in now with people being afraid to disagree and, you know, just being so divisive. I'd love to hear a little bit more from you about that quote and empathy being about connection and not conversion.
Maria Ross [00:12:44]:
Yeah. I think it kinda goes back to the myth that empathy means I agree with you. And so we can I I love finding these parallels with my work and parenting just, I guess, because I'm in it, and I have a 10 year old? But, you know, I can I can teach my child or I can look at something my child does and not agree with it? Right? Please don't ride on the dog. Like, that's not a good thing. But I can try to find empathy of you know, I don't I don't have to condone that behavior, and I can speak out I could say that is not a good behavior to engage in. But I understand you're you're bored or you wanna wrestle with the dog or you wanna do something active with the dog. How about you go for a walk with the dog? How about you go toss the ball in the backyard? So if I understand what what the person is trying to get to, I can maybe redirect them away from the behavior or the the thinking or, you know, why you know, you don't like this strategy because of this. I disagree with you.
Maria Ross [00:13:42]:
I see a different path to get to our goals. And so I think when we focus on empathy, we can focus on making the connection of, I don't agree with you, but I understand why you think the way you do. And so let's find a solution that helps us move forward together. And that's what I mean by the connection versus the conversion. We don't have to walk away agreeing with each other. We just have to walk away with a productive solution.
Teri Schmidt [00:14:05]:
Yeah. Another recent guest talked about respectfully disagreeing.
Maria Ross [00:14:10]:
Yeah. And even in some cases, you know, when when people when leaders have to make tough business decisions, the goal is not to get 100% of agreement. There's no such decision that pleases everybody. But if you have a philosophy of being transparent and being clear, you know, some of the pillars in the new book, if you can present the case of this is why I've made the decision, I've factored in everyone's points of view, but here's why we did this, and here's why we accepted this, and we didn't accept that. Now you can get everybody to do what I call in the book and what other people have shared with me is disagree but commit. So we're not all going to be happy, a 100% happy with this decision, especially if you have a large team. Right? It's impossible. Right.
Maria Ross [00:14:53]:
But if they can understand at least that the decision was made fairly and transparently and at least their perspective was considered, they can be more, willing to disagree but commit. But you also, as a leader, have to be clear about, we're gonna make sure we disagree and commit, and we're not gonna have this conversation again. Right? We're gonna move forward.
Teri Schmidt [00:15:13]:
Right. You know, there's so much in your book that we could dig into. And I'm on board with so much of it and loved reading it and would highly recommend all listeners go out and get it. But something in particular struck me because I have heard this from several leaders that I've been talking to recently, and that is around the weaponization of empathy. And particularly after the pandemic, how in some cases, you can say that empathy is being weaponized. So I wonder if we could use that frame. I'd love to hear from you first, of course. What do you mean by the weaponization of empathy and some of the stories that you've heard from leaders, but maybe we could use that to go through your 5 pillars and talk about how each of those pillars might help when you are in a situation, you're a leader, and maybe you think that someone is weaponizing empathy.
Maria Ross [00:16:06]:
Yeah. So weaponized empathy is and I'm gonna put some caveats on this too because let me take a step back. We've come a long way with being able to discuss personal issues in the workplace and really understand that people are not machines. They're not robots. Whatever happens to them outside of the office door comes with them inside the office door or the metaphorical office door. Right? Right. And so we're getting a lot better about understanding that, that what's happening in someone's family life, what's happening to them personally or with their own mental health, what's happening to them because of what they're seeing in society and culture, maybe as a group or as an underrepresented group, for example. That's actually impacting their ability to come to work and invent, collaborate, perform, deliver.
Teri Schmidt [00:16:52]:
Mhmm. Like,
Maria Ross [00:16:53]:
it there's no way it can't. Right? So it's good that we're able to discuss these things, and we now people have the language to talk to their bosses, to talk to their colleagues. We, you know, we hear more talk of mental health in the workplace. We see more benefits being offered around mental health. We see more accommodations and more flexibility, for people and their situations, different paid time off policies, etcetera. Those are all great things and should continue, that flexibility, that that caring, that acting with compassion and understanding. But what has happened is what I call weaponizing empathy is that some people, and I I like to be very clear that these are outliers, will take those words and that language and use it against bosses who are trying to be empathetic as a way to shut them down. Meaning, you have asked me to work late.
Maria Ross [00:17:48]:
Even though we're in a crisis or it's just, you know Mhmm. 2 or 3 nights of working late. That crosses my boundary, and I think I'm gonna need to take some mental health days to process that request. Mhmm. It's that kind of language and that kind of talk when it's turned against, an organization or a leader who's not asking something completely unreasonable, but is now scared to make those asks of their employees. They're scared that Yes. The work's not gonna get done. They're scared the employee's gonna leave.
Maria Ross [00:18:20]:
They're scared the employee's gonna quiet quit. They're scared the employee's gonna report them to HR. Right?
Teri Schmidt [00:18:25]:
Mhmm.
Maria Ross [00:18:26]:
So what happens is that leader neglects their own mental health to try to deal with the situation and try to shield the rest of their team from the damage that that can cause if someone's not pulling their weight. And that's where I'm seeing burnout. That's where I'm seeing you know, I I'm working 90 hours a week because, you know, Jimmy on my team said he needed 3 mental health days because I asked him to work late. Right? So Mhmm. That's not good for anyone.
Teri Schmidt [00:18:52]:
Right.
Maria Ross [00:18:52]:
And so really with the the 5 pillars and also understanding what empathy is and isn't, because I think that helps a lot too, is it helps you shore up that foundation so you can better deal with that kind of an attack if it happens to you. Right? And you can you can know that you've been you know, the the pillars are around self awareness, self care, clarity, decisiveness, and joy. You can stand strong. You know? Am I aware of my own blind spots and my my strengths? I am. So I know that I am actually being completely fair to this person. They're the ones that might be a little unreasonable. Am I taking care of myself? Is my well full? Right? If I'm hungry, tired, stressed, I am a raw nerve, and I'm not going to deal with any sort of perceived attack in an effective constructive way. Am I being clear? You know, what have I been clear with my team about not only their their job responsibilities on the job posting, but about our culture?
Teri Schmidt [00:19:56]:
You know, we are going to
Maria Ross [00:19:57]:
make sure you have really great work life and integration, but sometimes you will be called on to work late. Sometimes you will be asked to do something outside of the scope of your work. Are you gonna sign on for that? Because if you're not Mhmm. I totally respect that, but we need people that are going to be willing to sign on for that. And if that's not where you are, then that's a different conversation. Now we have to have a conversation about if this is the right role or company for you. And not in a not in a, threatening way, but in a like, maybe your, maybe your values and your life circumstances have changed, and you can no longer honor that obligation of what I've established as the culture. And that's about clarity.
Maria Ross [00:20:38]:
You know, we we can't hold people to an expectation we've never So, and then decisiveness. Have I been clear? Have I been consistent? Have I made the tough calls? Have I addressed a performance review before it festered and turned into someone weaponizing empathy?
Teri Schmidt [00:20:54]:
Mhmm.
Maria Ross [00:20:55]:
And then finally, has there been joy in our workplace? And not like constant laughter, but is there is there a form of I was just discussing this with someone yesterday. It's not about being a comedian as a leader. It's about, do I create lightness? Do I create levity? Do I create an atmosphere of camaraderie and joy and, you know, comfort and safety for people even when the work is hard. And so some of that weaponization could be a reaction to a very stifling environment, a very, you know, like, I don't feel like I have an inch to give when you ask me to do extra work or to stay late or to help a colleague with something because I'm so strapped and stressed within the environment we're in. You know, an empathetic leader could take a look at that, and maybe there's something underneath that reaction of weaponized empathy that can be something they can control within setting the tone of the culture with the team. So kind of long winded, but I was trying to tie in all those pillars for you in that one concept.
Teri Schmidt [00:21:59]:
No. I appreciate that. And I wanna touch on something you just said. You know, what if someone may not have bad intentions even though it seems like they're weaponizing empathy? How do you support leaders then in doing that perspective taking or perspective getting and using empathy to dig a little bit deeper while at the same time taking care of themselves and the team?
Maria Ross [00:22:25]:
Yeah. So in the empathy edge, I when I was talking about the leadership circle of the equation, leadership, culture, brand, I offered some actionable strategies to help leaders or even anyone individually strengthen their empathy. And that's actually the first step is you've sort of gotta go to the empathy gym and shore up your empathy muscles. And, you know, that starts with you know, that's why the first pillar is self awareness. The second pillar is self care. You might think, why are the first two pillars of empathy about me and not about other people? It's because if that foundation is weak, everything else falls apart. Right? So Yeah. You've gotta be taking care of your own.
Maria Ross [00:23:02]:
You know? I I know everyone uses this analogy, but it's true. Like, your phone your your mobile phone is never gonna work well if it's not fully charged up. And it doesn't matter what happens or what's what context. It's always going to be in a weakened state. And so really shoring up our own empathy muscle and then working on our self awareness and our self care fills up our our well. And, therefore, we now are not exasperated when we get these weird requests, when we get the you know, we don't we don't see everything as entitlement. We see it as Mhmm. Something that needs you know, we need to have a conversation about.
Maria Ross [00:23:42]:
Right? And just that perspective. I mean, we all can think about when we're hungry and tired, everything is a drama. Right? Yeah. Sure. And so it's kind of the same thing as a leader is you're gonna be more willing to get underneath of of what's happening versus the reaction just like, oh, can you just go away and make my life easier? Right? Because you're maxed out. So I think that's the key, and that's why the pillars are so important of understanding what can I control? The 2 first pillars. I can control myself and what my own growth mindset, what I'm willing to admit, what I'm willing to see about myself, what I'm willing to assess, and how I'm going to recharge. Right? Self care is not about nannies and patties.
Maria Ross [00:24:24]:
It's about what is actually going to recharge you and help you see things in a different way. And that can be something active. It doesn't have to be meditation or yoga or massage. It could be running. It could be tennis. It could be whatever, knitting. But it just all goes back to that because that's the mindset. That's the presence and the mindfulness you're coming into the I don't wanna say the confrontation, but I guess the conversation Mhmm.
Maria Ross [00:24:48]:
With. And so you start to see you're the common denominator of, like, everyone's pissing you off today. Right? Their demands might not be unreasonable, but in your state, they are. And if you don't know what your triggers are, that's part of the self awareness. If you don't know what your triggers are, you don't even know what got you so defensive, what got you. And so it's really about I spoke with one CEO who, through a lot of work, she she runs a really successful business with lots of different people with lots of different needs, right, and clients she's juggling across all of these different people. And she figured out that one of her triggers is when someone doesn't believe her. And her reaction to that is to get angry, to feel like she has to have all her data and all this and all that when someone just doesn't take her experience as her experience.
Maria Ross [00:25:43]:
She now knows that's a trigger for her. And so if she has an employee or a client that says, but you said this was gonna be delivered by this date, she now knows red flag red flag. I know this is gonna trigger me because I know I have an email that says and a contract that says we were gonna deliver it on this date, not that date. Mhmm. She can better compose herself in the moment. But if she she she had so many issues before because she didn't realize that was a trigger for her. Yeah. And so it's about understanding those triggers so that when your people trigger you
Teri Schmidt [00:26:18]:
Mhmm.
Maria Ross [00:26:18]:
You can take that step back. You can recognize it's coming. You can say you're trying to distract me because you know you know that's a trigger for me. Maybe your people are smart enough to know what, you know, it's like a little like, your your child. Perfect. Know how to, like, push their buttons. Right? Yeah. So I think all of that combined, it's not not that, like, I don't wanna leave with the message of, like, all of this is your fault as a leader.
Maria Ross [00:26:39]:
Mhmm. But some of this is about how you show up in the interaction and how you model in the interaction. So the question I get a lot is, but I'm dealing with someone who's not being empathetic to me. Mhmm. And it's that's not our problem to solve. Our problem to solve is how we show up in the in the engagement and in the interaction so that we can model. This is how our relationship is gonna go. Yeah.
Maria Ross [00:27:03]:
Yeah. You can rail against that. You can get angry, but this is how I'm gonna show up in this conversation.
Teri Schmidt [00:27:10]:
Yeah. And that gets to the clarity part. I really love that part and that pillar, particularly as we talk about weaponizing empathy because you talked about the rules of engagement and setting those even when you are bringing someone on board, while you're hiring them. You know, just saying, this is how we operate. If there's a crisis, we may need you to work late, or this is how we operate. We respect each other's time. So, yes, I know you need to walk the dog at lunchtime, but our meeting is starting at 1, and I expect everyone to be there. I think setting those rules of engagement upfront and giving that clarity also gives our team members stability.
Teri Schmidt [00:27:50]:
And I know Gallup did research on what team members need from leaders, and one of the big core ideas with that was stability. So I see clarity and the sense of stability that people get from their leader as being very much entwined.
Maria Ross [00:28:06]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And, again, you know, kinda going back to that, sometimes you need to look at the entitlement issue or the weaponizing empathy issue and say, let's have a conversation. Like, Teri, was I you know, let's be honest with each other. Was I clear that sometimes this would be expected of you? And they can say yes or no. And Mhmm. Hopefully, you have your ducks in a row that you can say, well, we specifically had, you know, a meeting about we have a meeting about this once a month where we kinda go through our rules of engagement. We go through our team values, and we iterate what those look like in action.
Maria Ross [00:28:38]:
So help me understand where you missed that connection. Mhmm. And that can be enough to dial someone back. That can be enough to go. They realize their part in not understanding it. But, you know, the example I gave of the memorandum of understanding from Lytro in the book, a com a creative company started by a former Disney Imagineer was all about here's this is not just this is what your job is. It's this is how we treat each other. This is how we get work done.
Maria Ross [00:29:10]:
This is, you know, like as as an example, one of the things are we challenge each other, and it doesn't mean we're attacking. It means we're trying to make the idea better. Now some people might go, well, of course, that's what people do when they challenge each other. That's an assumption. So if we're able to be super clear about, like, if this happens to you, please don't take it personally. This is what we do in this culture, is we are going to play devil's advocate when you have an idea. We are going to do debriefs on things that failed. We're going to do all of these things.
Maria Ross [00:29:40]:
It's a part of our culture. It's a part of our growth culture. And then the person, the employee has the opportunity to say, I'm either onboard with this or I'm not. And that's where it's like Right. Respect that totally, but that's what the culture is here. So if you want me to support you in finding a new role, in finding a different place to go, I'm happy to connect you with my network. I'm happy to write you a recommendation, but you have to put the responsibility back on the employee at some point to say, this is how we do things around here. Again, not threatening, but this is just this is what we're doing.
Maria Ross [00:30:16]:
And if that doesn't fit your lifestyle or your values, we completely understand. So what do you want to do next? I think what happens is as leaders, especially if you're a very empathetic leader, your first instinct is to make them happy. And that's a good instinct to have, but you don't wanna get into people pleasing and making exceptions all the time and and just like, we need to be clear that this is who we are and this is what we stand for. And I say this even as a brand strategist who's seen some cultures act appallingly in the marketplace. But you know what? You know what they stand for. And now it's on you. If you go there and you're unhappy, because they have made a statement about how they're going to do business and whether they support diversity, equity, and inclusion, or whether they support employees having a voice, or whether they support, you know, whatever. We have to give more responsibility and agency back to our workers on making the right choices for them.
Maria Ross [00:31:16]:
And again, I'm talking about people that are in privileged, you know, information worker positions. Of course. Yeah. Some people that can't just quit their job or they can only work certain jobs. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the the white collar labor force. And, but even if you have an hourly job and it's a horrible culture, you have to make a decision about if that is where you really wanna stay or not because they are telling you who they are. It's like a bad relationship.
Maria Ross [00:31:44]:
Right? They're telling you who they are, and if you stay in that relationship, that's on you.
Teri Schmidt [00:31:49]:
Yeah. And you know the ramifications of your own situation, kind of the cost benefit and what is right for you. And one additional point, I think there is some flexibility for a leader if someone comes in and says, well, I'm not really comfortable with that. For example, if the leader says, you know, we challenge each other on this team. And the person says, I'm not really comfortable with the way I was challenged because of x y z. I think there's an opportunity to flex on that as long as the leader knows the why, why we're challenging, why that's part of our culture. They can work with the team to not make that an exception, but make that a tweak to the team culture that actually recognizes that it's a new team now that you have a new person coming on to the
Maria Ross [00:32:40]:
team. Yeah. And that person can contribute an additional layer to that, memo of understanding or that that rule of engagement.
Teri Schmidt [00:32:50]:
Yeah.
Maria Ross [00:32:50]:
And, again, that that's about where like, these 5 pillars are meant for leaders, but they're also meant for anyone trying to be an empathetic colleague. So Mhmm. In that example, that employee should really shore up self awareness and understand what is the trigger for them about being challenged. And if they do know that about themselves, being able to share that and bring you know, that's what we mean when we talk about bringing our whole self to work. Being able to share that and say, hey, everyone. I just want you to know, you know, whether I choose to disclose why or not. I have challenges around being challenged. Right?
Teri Schmidt [00:33:27]:
Mhmm.
Maria Ross [00:33:27]:
And so here's what would help me. I understand the importance of this, but here's how I can best receive that information. And then you can all work together on that. And, again, that doesn't mean you're coddling someone. It means you're just adapting.
Teri Schmidt [00:33:42]:
Definitely. And it reminds me of something that I'd love to touch on just briefly. In your book, you mentioned citizenship behaviors. And I've heard leaders struggle with that as well, particularly in the remote workplace with the growth of the gig economy, you know, with less of their team members caring about being good citizens for the organization. There doesn't seem to be as much loyalty that to the organization, and because of that, you might not see those citizenship behaviors that maybe were more common in the past. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on where we stand with those behaviors and, you know, are they on their way out? Is there less commitment to the organization? Or is that something that through the effective use of empathy, we can continue to encourage?
Maria Ross [00:34:34]:
Well, I think if we're talking about citizenship behaviors that people believe everyone knows, and I'm using air quotes there. I think that is part of what I talk about in the new book about why empathy gets hard because it depends on your perspective of what you deem a citizenship behavior. Right? I think we can all fundamentally agree that being honest and not stealing is a good citizenship behavior. I don't think you're gonna find across the generations or across different diverse groups that people are gonna disagree with that. I think where it gets a little fuzzier and squishier are things like professionalism or professional communication or even, you know, what is what are work hours?
Teri Schmidt [00:35:16]:
Right? Mhmm.
Maria Ross [00:35:17]:
So I think those are the conversations that we used to take for granted because everyone was everything was being done the same way, and it was stifling a lot of creativity. It was leaving a lot of people excluded from the workforce. It was leaving a lot of people feeling like they didn't belong or couldn't innovate. But we need to have those conversations, and that's where something like the clarity around a code of conduct or a Yeah. Rules of engagement or a memorandum of understanding or whatever you wanna call it, a culture code, whatever, are so helpful because then it really puts everyone on the same page. I'm not just assuming that honor, integrity, and the customer is everything is important to you because it may or may not be. But if we don't know that we've clearly communicated that as a citizenship behavior, then we can't really, again, we can't really hold people accountable for that. And we also have to understand that citizenship behaviors evolve.
Maria Ross [00:36:12]:
So when we're talking about professionalism, when we're talking about communication, communication has evolved over centuries. Like, speech has evolved over centuries. So, you know, you've got these generations entering the workforce that that talk differently, that look at hierarchy differently, that look at professionalism differently. So instead of relying on the, like, well, everyone should know that, maybe it's worth being blatantly obvious and and documenting these things and discussing these things with people and not just making an assumption that, like, well, when you go to work, don't you know, everyone knows that you you don't challenge your boss, or everyone knows you can't just say no to a project that you've been asked to do. Mhmm. Do they? And I don't think it's a bad thing that that's evolving. Right? Because we're we all benefit from that. Even those of us, you know, gen xers who it's like, wow.
Maria Ross [00:37:06]:
That would have
Teri Schmidt [00:37:06]:
been great to be able
Maria Ross [00:37:07]:
to have that conversation and say, this I love this story because I used to work with a with a guy in corporate and when I worked in technology, and he was infamous for he was good at his job, but he was infamous for if somebody was giving him an additional project. He would just very respectfully counter his manager and say, totally can do that. Which of the 7 priorities on my plate do you want me to drop? Mhmm. And his management was, like, taken aback by that. But isn't that better than someone just taking it on and dropping the ball later? So I think we all benefit from understanding that maybe citizenship behaviors have changed and being able to really articulate them and clarify them so everyone is for sure on the same page.
Teri Schmidt [00:37:53]:
And clarify the why behind them and investigate. And the why. Yeah.
Maria Ross [00:37:59]:
Right. Right. And instead of because we've always done things this way.
Teri Schmidt [00:38:02]:
Mhmm. And that's right in line with because I said so. Well, excellent. I think everyone who's listening know this that I could talk about this for days, but I do wanna close with one question that we've been asking most of our guests recently, and that is what does strong leaders serve mean to you?
Maria Ross [00:38:26]:
I think that the key in that phrase is serve. Mhmm. I think too many people get into leadership for a variety of insecure reasons because they seek respect. They seek admiration. They seek control. And those things in and of themselves are not bad, but we have to remember that leaders are there to serve the collective, to serve the group, and ensure that the mission is accomplished. Right? And so if we think about they are not there to serve us. They are there to to do the work and to be deployed as we deploy them into whatever their roles are or whatever we need, but it's our job to serve as a leader and to say, what do you need from me to succeed? Mhmm.
Maria Ross [00:39:14]:
Not what are you gonna do for me that I tell you to do today? But and if you are coming to me with an issue or you're a squeaky wheel, it's not my job to shut you down. It's my job to understand what obstacle can I remove for you this week so that we collectively, achieve the mission? So strong leaders serve. Yeah. The strongest leaders know that they serve their people.
Teri Schmidt [00:39:38]:
Well put. Well, thank you for that. Now as I mentioned, I know your book is coming out on September 10th. If people are listening to this episode before September 10, 2024, I know that you have some preorder goodies that they can get at the book's website. I, of course, will link that URL in the show notes, but I wonder if you could just speak to a little bit if they are listening before September 10th and do preorder your book, what can they get?
Maria Ross [00:40:06]:
Yes. So, yeah, so the book is released on September 10th, but if you preorder and reserve your copy now through Amazon, through Barnes and Noble, through Porchlight, all of those links are on my website on on the page, the empathy dilemma.com. But I'm giving bonuses to anyone that buys during the presale period, and that includes an invitation to a VIP virtual launch event where you'll be able to ask questions and dig deeper into the stories of the book. And so if they go to the empathydilemma.com, they will find the links to purchase the book presale, to order the book presale. They won't get the book till September 10th. But then there's a link to go to to submit your receipt, and then you'll get all these bonus goodies unlocked for the presale, which will include some other stuff that is TBD.
Teri Schmidt [00:40:53]:
Like I said, you know, I was privileged to get an advanced copy of the book, and I highly recommend it that everyone go and preorder it right now. It will be valuable for you, not only in your leadership in the workplace, but also for your leadership in other areas of your life. Like we talked about parenthood, however you lead in the community, it's gonna be valuable in all those arenas.
Maria Ross [00:41:17]:
Those pillars are so good for parents too, honestly.
Teri Schmidt [00:41:21]:
Well, beyond going to the empathy dilemma.com, where else is the best place for people to get in touch with you if they wanna learn more about you or more about your work? I know that you do a lot of speaking and that you have other books. So where would you direct them?
Maria Ross [00:41:36]:
Yeah. So I can do leadership trainings or ERG talks or keynotes, and people can find all that information at my main site reddashslice.com. They can connect with me on Instagram at red slice Maria. I'm always posting good stuff there. Or they can connect with me on LinkedIn, Maria j Ross, but they have to personalize the note and say that they heard me on your show. Otherwise, I may ignore it thinking it's someone trying to sell me something.
Teri Schmidt [00:42:01]:
Exactly. We'll make sure that all of that gets included in the show notes as well so that people can just click on that and don't have to remember the websites if they're out running or doing something else as they're listening to this. But thank you again for your work, for bringing empathy to the forefront and making people understand how important it is for everything that they're trying to achieve as a business and as a leader. And thank you for coming on and spending time with us today.
Maria Ross [00:42:28]:
Thank you so much for having me, Teri.
Teri Schmidt [00:42:35]:
Well I hope you enjoyed that and can leave today with at least one thing to think about or try to help you and your team utilize empathy more effectively in the workplace. And until next time, lead with this quote by Maria in mind: "The goal of empathy is connection, not necessarily conversion."
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