Do you feel stuck in your efforts to make positive changes in your leadership? Your brain's drive to save energy may be to blame.
Join Teri Schmidt and Ursula Pottinga as they discuss how your brain can get in the way of change and what to do about it.
Resources:
About Ursula:
Ursula is a certified coach (CPCC, ICF credentialed PCC, and Master Neurotransformational Coach) with more than 20 years of experience living and working in Europe, Canada, Asia, and the US. She uses the practicality of classical coaching which explores the motivation and execution of goals, the alignment of values and obstacles to these goals and she combines them with a neuroscience view of human productivity, effectiveness, and change. The Co-Founder of BEabove Leadership and the Co-Designer of its groundbreaking Advanced Coaching Programs and webinars, she is a skillful workshop leader and mentor to experienced coaches with an expansive knowledge of how and why coaching works. She is also a Certified Relational Trauma and Neuroscience coach to bring about change and healing in organizations that have been impacted by relational trauma. She speaks internationally and has co-authored a number of books.
Transcript
While it's not perfect, we offer this transcription by Castmagic for those who prefer to read or who are hearing impaired.
Teri Schmidt [00:00:00]:
Welcome to the Strong Leaders Serve podcast, Ursula. I'm so looking forward to our conversation today.
Ursula Pottinga [00:00:06]:
Yes. Likewise. And thank you for having me. I'm always interested and excited about talking about leaders and how they can serve better and also for their own, you know, their own growth and development.
Teri Schmidt [00:00:20]:
Yes. Definitely. And and when we can talk about neuroscience on top of all that, I It's a bonus. Even more exciting.
Ursula Pottinga [00:00:28]:
Yeah. Definitely.
Teri Schmidt [00:00:29]:
And and I have to give you a little bit of background. I know we talked a little bit about it, but, you know, I was one of those compassionate driven leaders that I primarily partner with now, and I, you know, wanted to do everything on my own and and read all the books and improve all the time. And then I had one opportunity to sit down with a coach, and I could not figure out why the change happened so quickly after that. And then after having the pleasure of getting to have you in my UTD program and learn a little bit more about how our brain works and then do a little bit research myself, It really is fascinating how the brain can sometimes get in our way when we wanna make positive changes, and it can also help us. But I'd love to, you know, dig in today a little bit about how we may not even be aware of how it can get in our way Yes. And how sometimes having that trusted partner, whether that be a coach or someone else to talk to can can help us to, get around that in a sense.
Ursula Pottinga [00:01:38]:
Yeah. No. Absolutely.
Teri Schmidt [00:01:39]:
But I'd love to start with you in terms of, you know, what first inspired you to study the intersection of neuroscience and coaching?
Ursula Pottinga [00:01:49]:
I such a great question, and, I was reflecting back on that. So as you know, I have a, wonderful business partner, and and, you know, we've been, partners for twenty two years and have always been really fascinated and interested about consciousness. And so for many years, we, you know, studied the work of doctor David Hawkins, the map of consciousness. We read and studied other thought leaders. And then at one point, it was actually Anne who called me and said, you know, in terms of coaching and consciousness, she said there has to be a connection here somewhere. And I think the doorway to that connection is through neuroscience. And, so she somewhat tentatively shared with me that she was thinking of enrolling in the Neuro Leadership Institute. And it was it was very sweet, and it was very funny.
Ursula Pottinga [00:02:51]:
She said, well, you know, I'm really thinking about that, but I don't know how you feel about it. And, so my first reaction was, you go right ahead with that. That's not how my brain works. That is not something I don't think I can ever do. And so she said, okay. Yeah. But she said, would you mind then if I do that? And I said, no. Absolutely.
Ursula Pottinga [00:03:14]:
You go ahead. I mean, that's really your deal. Well, she enrolled and lo and behold, first session with neuroleader in, Leadership Institute, she called me back and she said, you know you have no idea what we talked about, today in your leadership institute. You know, it was about neuroplasticity, and here's how the brain works and how it links to coaching. And, so we would have these ongoing conversations. And every time she would call me with yet another insight about the brain, I would say, oh, I can feel a coaching tool coming on. And so I got sort of somewhat inspired and in a way sucked in really by the novelty and the the interest and the fascination. The more we talked about it, the more I realized there was really such a deep connection that was super valuable for coaches, for our clients, for leaders, for myself that needed to be explored.
Ursula Pottinga [00:04:19]:
And so, you know, a year later, she and I enrolled in a program that doctor Dan Siegel had for a year, and, basically, I was I was committed. I was in love, with the science. And, you know, from then, we just kept adding, to our own development in terms of study and reading, and then we created, you know, our advanced coaching program. So it was really her inspiration. And then what she shared with me in terms of neuroscience made so much sense, and there were so many light bulb moments for me personally. I suddenly understood myself so much better, and I thought we need to share this in a way that's useful. And so here we are seventeen years later, and I can't imagine, life without neuroscience.
Teri Schmidt [00:05:20]:
Oh, but what what a great journey and and story, you know, to the fact that you were pretty hesitant at the beginning.
Ursula Pottinga [00:05:27]:
Oh, I was I was adamant.
Teri Schmidt [00:05:29]:
For me to believe, but that that is that is so so funny. I think so many things in life sometimes happen that way, whether that be, you know, a a spousal relationship or or something else. At first, it might be the person we don't want to with that we end up, you know, spending our lives with.
Ursula Pottinga [00:05:47]:
But Yeah. No. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's, it's interesting. This story also really, connects to neuroplasticity because, basically, what I was saying to Anne, I don't have any neural pathways in my brain as it relates to science. In school, I was a linguist, so languages was my deal. You know, science yeah.
Ursula Pottinga [00:06:10]:
Social science, geography, you know, all of that and languages, but that is what I loved. And so my response was really a brain response. It's like, I don't have any neuroplasticity and neuropathways there, and therefore, it feels really uncomfortable even thinking about it. And this uncomfortable notion is really about brain wiring and neural pathways. And then, of course, the more we talked about neuroscience and we the more we developed our tools, the more neural connections I had in my brain that then really made this journey just a little bit easier. And then with practice, it became better and better and more fluid and and easier. But the first the first year, first year and a half, the first two years, they were a struggle. I I struggled.
Ursula Pottinga [00:07:06]:
I mean, I really did with understanding it, making sense of it, remembering it, all the technical terms. But then, you know, you you you do this day in, day out, and then over time, it begins to be so obvious Yeah. Which is not obvious to begin with.
Teri Schmidt [00:07:25]:
Yeah. Yeah. And that becoming obvious are those new neural pathways Yeah. You know, getting established. Yeah.
Ursula Pottinga [00:07:32]:
Absolutely. That's an
Teri Schmidt [00:07:32]:
excellent point.
Ursula Pottinga [00:07:33]:
Yeah.
Teri Schmidt [00:07:34]:
Thank you for calling that out. And it's a great jumping off point too. I mentioned to you when we were talking before we hit record that the leaders I work with, I call compassionate driven leaders, because they care as deeply about the people that they work with and ensuring that they also can become leaders themselves as they do about the business results that they are aiming for. So I think sometimes when you hear compassionate leaders, you think they aren't driven by business results and vice versa, but those that I work with are really about both of those together, which can bring up some unique challenges. Yes. But that driven piece, you know, because they have that drive, they're they're usually very successful Yes. On their own. But sometimes, like I mentioned at the beginning, may struggle to change something that they want to change.
Teri Schmidt [00:08:30]:
Yeah. So I'd love if Yeah. You could kind of build in on what you were just talking about in neural pathways maybe, talk about what needs to happen in the brain for someone to make a change.
Ursula Pottinga [00:08:42]:
Oh, it's such a great question. And just like you, I, you know, work with the same kind of clientele, definitely driven, definitely very empathetic. And I think what I see in this particularly, there's a sort of a couple of, you know, faces and names that are coming to me as I'm talking. Mhmm. That drivenness has created already a neural pathway. So something that we do a lot and we repeat again and again and again, it becomes a very strong neural wiring. And if that habit is a habit that proves to be effective and serves the individual as well as the the people they are working with, if this is an effective neural pathway, then we can really say, okay. This is good.
Ursula Pottinga [00:09:35]:
I can let my brain travel along that superhighway. But when we find that they are habits and actions and thoughts that we have created over long periods of time that feel like a struggle, they don't it doesn't feel like they serve us anymore, then changing that is a problem because it's the same superhighway. And the way the brain works is it's trying to conserve energy. So the brain runs on glucose and because of that is sort of somewhat lazy. It's trying to conserve energy. So it uses the thickest neural connection that there is in the brain because it's then, really, it's faster firing. I mean, it's a little bit like, you know, an electricity cord that you have in your house. The thicker the cord, the faster the firing to the lamp, to the, you know, whatever it is.
Ursula Pottinga [00:10:38]:
And then the skinnier, cord, the firing there, it takes it takes a lot longer. So the metaphor of the superhighway are those neural pathways that we have used from often years. And then the dirt road, as I call them, are the new habits we are trying to create, and they're bumpy. You know? They are full of potholes, and they're full of rocks and stones and obstacles. And so that metaphor of the dirt road and the superhighway fits perfectly with neuroplasticity. So anything that you have done for long periods of time that feels comfortable is our comfort zone. Those habits are really hard to change because you have start to you basically start to build a dirt road that takes a lot of intention and attention. And so that is what the brain is then struggling with is putting that energy to those harder accessible roads.
Ursula Pottinga [00:11:45]:
And so tiredness, stress, those have an impact on whether we're using the superhighway or whether we're using our energy to travel along that dirt road. So anything new that you wanna create and change will be that proverbial metaphorical dirt road. And I think it helps to understand that it is a dirt road, and therefore, it is just harder. It's just harder to travel along that path and giving yourself permission to be patient, to make mistakes, to sometimes slide back to the old habits again because that superhighway is super strong, can help us feel more comfortable with the uncomfortableness of of change.
Teri Schmidt [00:12:37]:
Yeah. I love the the dirt road analogy because it Yeah. Makes it so easy to to think about. And what you said too about anytime we're under stress Yeah. Or, you know, whether that be affecting us emotionally or physically, that we're likely to go back to that that superhighway. Yeah. And, you know, two topics that we're dealing with on the podcast for a little bit now for several episodes are two challenges that I see in a a lot of my clients, and that is workload, you know, the the intense workload and a sense of disconnection, whether that be from other people or from the mission of the organization they're working with. Yeah.
Teri Schmidt [00:13:22]:
And I can see those two challenges really driving even the best, you know, most well intentioned leader back to the superhighways
Ursula Pottinga [00:13:33]:
Yes.
Teri Schmidt [00:13:33]:
That maybe they would like to get off of.
Ursula Pottinga [00:13:36]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Because the the the workload, the inability or the there is less time to reflect. There's less time to sort of relax. There's less time to ponder. All of that intense focus takes a lot of energy, and so doing something new, it's almost like the resources have been used for workload, and there isn't enough of resource in the brain and in the body that's left for change and really sort of moving along this this this bumpy road. Now there are, seven key factors to neuroplasticity, and I wanna sort of touch lightly on those because I think they're also will address a little bit the the connection and the workload, challenge. So the seven key factors are things like, for example, novelty.
Ursula Pottinga [00:14:37]:
Novelty that when something is new, it really creates excitement in the brain. It's also rewarding to the brain. So anytime we do something that's new, yeah, it's challenging, but the excitement and the reward will also help us create those new neural connections. So novelty in terms of change is important. The brain is not interested in things that are boring. It loses attention. And so when you're thinking about wanting to change a habit, you have to you have to try and figure out how can we do it in a way that's novel, that's interesting. The other thing, and this is in relationship to connection, one of the biggest key factors and important one to neuroplasticity is relationships.
Ursula Pottinga [00:15:28]:
So when we're in relationship, it is easier for us to make a change, and I think that is where coaching comes in. Yeah. A coach is such a good advocate, a sounding board, an accountability buddy. You know, there's a safe space of also sharing our emotional struggles with that person and all of that will really help with the with the the the neuroscience load on the brain and will help us sort of offload to that a little bit to someone who can can support us, and help us. So relationship is is really, really important. We do better as human beings when we're connected not only in relationship to change, but generally. So there's novelty, There's relationship. And then the other one is making mistakes is one of the key factors.
Ursula Pottinga [00:16:24]:
So that's actually a little bit, I think, of a cultural twist because we think making mistake is a bad a bad thing. Well, you know that when you are not sure about something or when you are making a mistake, it gives you the signal that your brain is really traveling along this dirt road. It's not your comfort zone. It's not the, you know, you do what you always have done. And so making mistakes helps the brain prune, cut off certain pathways that might lead us in the wrong direction and help us really stick with the road at hand. And, again, I think that is where coaching comes in because a coach can really help us with the question of saying, okay. How did that work? And what didn't work? And what did work? Because if we don't have that, then we might be doing something wrong again and again and again and again. And before we know, we've created a new neural pathway, but it's the wrong it's the wrong pathway.
Ursula Pottinga [00:17:33]:
Right. Right? It's like, okay. Why did I do this? Why did I do this? Now I have to reverse course and, you know, go in the wrong direction. So it can, again, relationship, making mistakes that can really be helpful in terms of, you know, reflection and action and shifting when we need to shift and move. So if you are a leader and you are wanting to change something, find an advocate. If you don't have a coach, find find a buddy, find an advocate, find someone that's a good sounding board, that's a good person to brainstorm, that you can check-in with and saying, this is how I think about this. Am I right? What are you seeing? Because that will help your brain create the pathway in the right direction rather than, you know, you having to create a detour and go like, oops. Oops.
Ursula Pottinga [00:18:28]:
Wrong way.
Teri Schmidt [00:18:30]:
Yeah. And not only wrong way one time, actually, creating, like, that new neural pathway.
Ursula Pottinga [00:18:35]:
Exactly. Again and again and again. And then another, key factor is actually rest. So I think this is where work overload comes in. If our brain doesn't get a chance to rest and relax and activate the default mode network, which is the network in the brain that helps us dream, ponder, go to the past, go to the future. It's sort of permission to be distracted kind of brain. Very different from the task positive network, the other network that helps us to be very, very present in the moment and very, very focused on tasks. So as a leader, if you are doing doing doing doing doing focus focus focus and you don't give your brain a little bit of default mode network time, over time, you will lose a certain amount of inspiration and motivation and also creativity because the default mode taps into this relaxed state that, for example, we have him in the shower, and we don't need to focus on anything.
Ursula Pottinga [00:19:53]:
Mhmm. You know, we there's nothing needed, Wimber, in the shower. We can just relax and enjoy. And I don't know about you, but I have I have the best ideas when I'm in the shower because I'm not trying to figure it out as I'm sitting in front of my computer or the desk. So if you're overloaded in terms of workload and you don't give your, brain time to relax and ponder and dream, you are going to lose capacity. And so I think that speaks to, you know, work overload. Even if you only take ten minutes, get up, go for a walk, let your mind wander, don't go back to your to do list, Just dream. Look at the trees, the sky, take in the natural environment.
Ursula Pottinga [00:20:41]:
All of that will help your brain relax. And I guarantee you, as soon as you come back to the office or your computer, whatever it is, the idea that you've been looking for is probably gonna emerge through that relaxed state of brain. So the drive to do do do do, it has its limits. Your brain has a limited capacity to focus. And when it's done, it actually is done. We need you need to give it, an opportunity to to have that space more intentionally. That's, I think, is the most important part of this whole network scenario.
Teri Schmidt [00:21:26]:
Yeah. That you that was the word I was going to use after listening to you that being intentional about it and, you know, having a little bit more well, I would say control, but, you know, just intention around, you know, when you give your brain that rest that you need, like you said Yeah. To be the most effective leader that you can be.
Ursula Pottinga [00:21:49]:
Yeah.
Teri Schmidt [00:21:50]:
And then, you know, I I just think about those overloaded leaders out there who are listening and and who are thinking, you know, that that's okay. I can you know, if I just try harder, I can I can figure this out? Yeah. And, you know, I I think what you said about creating those wrong dirt rows, those wrong branches Yeah. And off because you don't have someone to reflect with. Yeah. You don't have the opportunity to have someone who's skilled in asking you questions that might surface why that is the wrong road and might help you get, you know, back on that dirt road that you wanna turn into a superhighway. Yeah. And so it it's almost like a catch 22 because you you think you're so busy, you don't have time to spend that time reflecting, and and that's another reason, you know, I advocate for coaching so much.
Teri Schmidt [00:22:44]:
It's the intentional time Yeah. That can accelerate those realizations and those reflections Yeah. Especially when you're with someone who is skilled and and knows how to access that and help you reflect.
Ursula Pottinga [00:22:58]:
No. Absolutely. It's a sort of an interesting thing. Yeah. You're you're absolutely right. We think, oh, I can figure this out. I just need to do one more thing. I can do this one more thing.
Ursula Pottinga [00:23:07]:
Well, you probably can't, and you are better served to stop just when you think I I just got nothing left and you think you can do one more thing. My advice to you would be when you feel that you've come to your limit, stop and take a break. Take a rest. Do something simple. Many people meditate even five, ten minutes. That is a restful place. As I said, going for a walk, journaling, doodling, do you know, have coloring pencils somewhere. Something that doesn't require focused attention.
Ursula Pottinga [00:23:46]:
And that will refresh your brain. It will refresh the energy. You will make fewer mistakes because your brain isn't overloaded. You will have more creativity and imagination, which you need for being also an innovative leader. And it's sort of, like, always funny to me that, you know, some some organizations have these innovation programs. Right? And but they don't give the people any time for default mode. They're just like, let's do innovation now. Mhmm.
Ursula Pottinga [00:24:19]:
Let's focus on innovation. And it's like Mhmm. No. That's not where innovation comes from. Innovation comes from not thinking about it, but sending a little intention out there and sleeping on it and, you know, all of that, that is when the when the solution comes. And I think there is a little bit of a myth or a misunderstanding that working means doing and productivity. But your brain has two different ways of working. One way of working is focused attention, and the other way it works is by mind wandering and dreaming.
Ursula Pottinga [00:24:58]:
It's two different kinds of work, and it's still work.
Teri Schmidt [00:25:02]:
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. You know, I I don't think you know, many people in our culture would say that that is work to to dream and let your mind wander, but that, you know, the brain proves otherwise.
Ursula Pottinga [00:25:13]:
Yes. Yep. Another one of this the key factors is personal relevance. We will only change what is personally relevant to us. Everything else is a should. I should be doing this. I should be better at that. But over time, if there isn't a strong motivation, if there isn't a strong inspiration, if it's not relevant to you, you might start, but it will fizzle out eventually.
Ursula Pottinga [00:25:51]:
If it is important to you, you will make the effort. You will change it. You need to find the personal relevance. Is it in alignment with your values? Is it in alignment with your mission, your vision that you have for yourself? And if all that lines up, then making that change happening will be so much easier. And so if you are supervising and managing people and you feel they need to change something, make sure that you have the personal relevance and value conversation with them. Why is it important? How is it important? Why is it relevant? What's the motivation? Is it in alignment with their values? When you have that conversation, you will know whether they're really motivated by this or not. And if they're not motivated, my guess would be they might start, but it will never really truly land.
Teri Schmidt [00:26:53]:
I know that our brain is not necessarily a fan of uncertainty for many of the reasons that you've already talked about, but I'd love to hear more about, you know, what we can do when we are going through those periods of uncertainty where we don't have those patterns of behavior to rely on Yeah. And how the brain can get in our way, but also how we can get around that.
Ursula Pottinga [00:27:18]:
Yeah. No. This is, I think, so relevant in today's world where I think things change faster than we can possibly keep up with. And, again, it's an interesting in terms of the brain. So the research of Lisa Feldman Barrett, so you might wanna just sort of keep a little bit of a sort of note for yourself if you're listening to this podcast. Her name is Lisa Feldman Barrett, and her research is really about how are emotions created. And so she has done some intensive, research over many years with, you know, thousands and thousands of peep, all peer reviewed. And what she has come to is really saying the brain constructs emotions based on what it can predict.
Ursula Pottinga [00:28:15]:
And the predictions are based on past experiences, history, context, and the current goal. And so the brain uses evidence from the past to help us with the prediction for what is coming next, and that is literally either next moment, next week, or next year. So this prediction cycle of, okay, Here is how I feel. This feeling is based on something that I've experienced before. And now the question is, is this feeling and this prediction I have, what's gonna happen next, is this helping or not helping? So what the research shows is that when we have negative predictions about something that's gonna happen, that is usually based on something that was negative in the past because, otherwise, the brain wouldn't make that connection. And so anytime we don't have a prediction about anything, so when it unpredictable, the brain is literally looking for something. It's looking for some direction. It's looking for some connection that can help us emotionally connect to what's gonna come next.
Ursula Pottinga [00:29:35]:
And change is unpredictable, and so it is hugely challenging for the brain to have no data. So if you have been, you know, acquired by another company or there's been mergers or, you know, you have a new team or a new boss, but the the first reaction of the brain is I have no idea what to do with it. I don't know who these people are. I don't know what this is. I don't know who this person is. So it sends us into this emotional, tailspin where we really go down into frustration and anxiety and worry because the the message of the brain is this is unpredictable, and therefore, it's bad news. However, if we can put ourselves into that position again and ask ourselves, okay. I can't predict what's gonna happen next because there's a new team, a new boss, whatever it is.
Ursula Pottinga [00:30:32]:
I don't know what's gonna happen with that because that's outside of my control. But what can I predict about myself? How have I been handling change in new situations before? And so then the brain goes back to saying, oh, when you were in this organization, there was change, and here's how you handled that. Or when you move to a different country, that was changed. Here's how you handled it. Or whatever it might be, any change that you have lived through, the brain will use that as evidence, as a prediction factor of saying, you have no control over the uncontrollable, but what you can lean into is what you can predict about yourself. That you were strong, that you were capable, that you were curious, that you were resilient, that you bounced back. Those are all things that we can then lean into that makes the unpredictable outside occurrences less scary because there's a prediction in here and in our brain that can help us navigate uncertain times not by focusing on the things that we simply can't control, which is outside of us, But looking in here and saying, you know what? Yeah. That is unpredictable, all that.
Ursula Pottinga [00:32:01]:
But here's what I know about myself, about how I handled before. How
Teri Schmidt [00:32:09]:
did
Ursula Pottinga [00:32:09]:
you un how did you deal with the pandemic? How did you live through that? I mean, that's such a big, unpredictable example that we all have lived through now, and the brain will tell you who you were being predictably so as you were living through these two years and coming out of it. So it's really building on an inner strength that you have that the brain has evidence for. And so we can start looking for that internal evidence. And so the external hurricane that's out here swirling becomes less threatening because we've got something to hold on to that's internal. Does that make sense?
Teri Schmidt [00:32:59]:
It it does make sense. And, you know, I think as you mentioned earlier, the energy saving nature of the brain that that gives it, you know, something to feel like it can predict what's gonna happen next on.
Ursula Pottinga [00:33:11]:
Yeah.
Teri Schmidt [00:33:11]:
And I think getting back to the reflection, it is, you know, so much easier sometimes when you can do that with a trusted partner as well as as opposed to trying to unearth that data in yourself and find the themes in that data so that then your brain can use it to predict.
Ursula Pottinga [00:33:30]:
I Yeah.
Teri Schmidt [00:33:31]:
Just, you know, a few good questions asked of me can help me do that in about a hundredth of a time as ruminating on it in my own mind would do.
Ursula Pottinga [00:33:42]:
Absolutely. And especially, you know, when we are feeling anxious or frustrated or, you know, there are some emotions going on, it is much harder for the brain to find the clarity and the groundedness and the clarity of thinking. So, you know, we need a partner like a coach, for example, to also help us regulate these emotions so that we can have a clearer thinking pattern. And, definitely, as it relates to prediction, that is not an easy thing to figure out for yourself. Do you you need someone who says to you, also, what are you predicting, and how does that feel, and what can you predict about yourself? What have you lived through that is much harder to access when you have to do it on your own for sure?
Teri Schmidt [00:34:30]:
Well, this has been a fascinating conversation. I would love to hear one question we've been asking all of our guests this season is if you had one piece of advice for a compassionate driven leader, what would that be? And everyone complains that I limit you to one, but I'm going to do that.
Ursula Pottinga [00:34:49]:
Well, in terms of everything that I, that I have said, I think probably the the biggest piece of it all is find what is important and relevant to you, not to what other people are telling you you should be doing, not what your boss says, not, you know, what feels like, oh, you know, that that needs to be done. But really find find this motivation inside of you that is values driven, you know, for you. Because when you come from this personal relevance piece, you will, number one, be more compassionate. And following, you know, a changed path is gonna be easier. You are also gonna inspire others in much different ways than they can, connect to, you know, this is important to me, and therefore, you know, I can sign up for that. You know, what's important to the team collectively? So if I have to narrow it down to one thing, it's Mhmm. You know, find personal relevance. And then, you know, I I know you said one, but I'll give another one
Teri Schmidt [00:36:04]:
is You're gonna cheat.
Ursula Pottinga [00:36:05]:
I gonna I'm gonna cheat. Be patient with yourself. Be compassionate with yourself. Change is hard. It doesn't happen overnight. Give yourself a break. Don't be so hard on yourself. That's not gonna serve you or anyone else.
Ursula Pottinga [00:36:24]:
Be compassionate with yourself and patient.
Teri Schmidt [00:36:29]:
Well, I'm going to take that advice myself, and I'm I'm sure many of our listeners appreciate it.
Ursula Pottinga [00:36:35]:
Including myself. I'm I'm talking to myself right now.
Teri Schmidt [00:36:39]:
Right. Well, if people want to get in touch with you or learn more about the work that you do, where is the best place for them to go?
Ursula Pottinga [00:36:50]:
And there's two places. Certainly, if you are a coach, and you have listened to that, then, be above, leadership.com. We have a great website with our neuroscience and coaching programs. If you are a leader, I also have a podcast that's on my website, profound groom. You can also find me on LinkedIn, and the the podcast is very much neuroconversations at the intersection of neuroscience, coaching, and systems because the system that you're in also has a huge impact on how you deal with this change and and everything else. So Profound Growth, you can reach me through my website there. So and thank you so much. It was lovely conversation.
Ursula Pottinga [00:37:36]:
Appreciate your questions and your curiosity and definitely love that you are supporting, strong leaders that are compassionate and driven because it's not an easy thing to integrate these two different Mhmm. Those different pieces. So really appreciate you. Thank you.
Teri Schmidt [00:37:56]:
Well, thank you. And and thank you for sharing your wisdom and your experiences as well. And I'm I'm sure that many of our least listeners are going to go follow you, and I highly recommend your podcast as well. Had an opportunity to listen, and it it was fascinating. So
Ursula Pottinga [00:38:11]:
thank you. Thank you very much. Take care.
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